Framing idea for introducing newcomers to concept of public goods

This is good (avoiding the jargon of “rivalrous”). But the core point I was bringing up is that we need to clarify that the scarcity/exclusion in question refers to a full set of freedoms. So, I want people not to think that access to public radio is enough, we have to ask them to test the set of freedoms. Public radio fails because publishing/sharing rights are artificially scarce.

So maybe:

A. Is it naturally scarce?
B. Are there restrictions on who can freely and practically: (1) copy, (2) use, (3) change, and (4) share?

If “no” to both, then it’s a public good!

Testing the test:

  • Wikipedia: No scarcity or exclusions, it’s a public good!
  • Public park: well, there’s some scarcity in terms of potential crowding, and copying is not really a thing… maybe sorta public good if there’s no realistic crowding or per-use wear-and-tear, but maybe it’s more like a commons than a public good
  • Public radio: not scarce, but yeah there’s restrictions on who can change and share it; not a full public good
  • Environmental clean-up (of public area like the ocean): there’s no scarcity to the benefits (we all benefit) and no restrictions (it’s just that copying and changing and sharing don’t really apply), I guess it’s a public good!
  • GitLab software (not the host service): well, it’s not scarce, but there are restrictions on who can copy, use, change, and share the proprietary features. So, not a complete public good.
  • Some unlicensed code on GitHub: well, technically that’s All Rights Reserved, so that amounts to restrictions, not a public good technically
  • Some gratis software stated that anyone can do anything with it, but with no published source code: well, only the guy with the source code can practically change it, so that amounts to one of the freedoms being exclusive, thus not a full public good.
  • Fish in the sea: naturally scarce, not a public good.

I think my updated 2-point test works and is the best yet. And “copy, use, change, and share” covers it enough. It’s missing “study” but the source question is captured by “practically”. I like including “copy” (a la “retain” from the Rs) because various other things like change/modify need to be understood as adapting copies not necessarily the original and because retention is indeed vital.

I absolutely love this discussion and think it will align well with the hopefully-accepted SeaGL talk!

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Proposing an update that doesn’t avoid jargon because full avoidance will confuse those who know or see the jargon. We just don’t want to rely on it. So, by using the jargon as test-name (not only 1 2 or A B), I think this is the best yet:

Is this a public goods project?

A. Rivalry test: Is it naturally scarce?
B. Club goods test: Are there restrictions on who can freely and practically: (1) copy, (2) use, (3) change, and (4) share?

Notes on wording details

I’m not sure about “rivalry” vs “rivalrous” vs “rivalrousness” and about “club goods” vs “exclusive” vs “exclusions” vs “exclusive club” or similar. But I’m pretty sure that using a name for each test is ideal. I really like this format of “Test name: test question?”

One more note on the wording “restrictions” is great because it implies artificial. There are limits to who can practically change something just based on changes that require expertise to do, but nobody would call that “restrictions”. So, we can’t just say “can anybody freely and practically…” the question is definitely whether there are “restrictions on who…”

At this point, I think it’s pretty close to perfect in that every detail of the test serves a specific necessary purpose.

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I still like “artificial scarcity” as a more well-known term, and I like using “scarce” in both questions to tie them together. Maybe something like

  1. Rivalry test: Is it naturally scarce?
    • Some more specific “litmus test” questions here, to explain how to answer the main question.
  2. Club goods test: Is it artificially scarce?
    • Are there restrictions on who can freely and practically: (1) copy, (2) use, (3) change, and (4) share?
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That natural-vs-artificial is super great and clear if we only cared about access.

However, the intuitions it pumps are the very ones I’m trying to get past in this topic. “Artificially scarce” gives everyone the sense that the resource could be available to everyone but it’s paywalled. It pushes everyone to say that public radio is not artificially scarce, and then they are set up to argue or feel jerked around when we say “yeah, but publishing rights are scarce” (that’s just a bad use of “scarce”).

“Artificially scarce” really only works for paywalls. The top priority for this whole topic is to aim directly at everyone right away intuiting that the freedoms are the key question and not something tacked on.

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Reflecting today, I think again the win-win is to have the jargon but not rely on it, and I think “exclusive” is a term we need to include. So:

Is this a public goods project?

A. Rivalry test: Is it naturally scarce?
B. Exclusivity test: Are there restrictions on who can freely and practically: (1) copy, (2) use, (3) change, and (4) share?

And this makes it easy to tie into the oft-used grid (which I’ve adapted in very specific ways that I think make it far more accessible than any other versions I’ve seen):

public-goods-table-screenshot

Note: that’s a screen shot from elsewhere because apparently Discourse doesn’t respect colspan and rowspan in tables. I don’t like the zebra-striping. I’d like to have it highlight the two No’s to point right to public goods.

HTML for table
<table>
  <tbody>
    <tr>
      <th colspan="2" rowspan="2">Types of goods</th>
      <th colspan="2" style="text-align: center; vertical-align: middle;">Scarce?</th>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <td>Yes</td>
      <td>No</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th rowspan="2" style="text-align: center; vertical-align: middle;">Exclusive?</th>
      <td>Yes</td>
      <td>Private goods</td>
      <td>Club goods</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <td>No</td>
      <td>Commons</td>
      <td><strong>Public goods</strong></td>
    </tr>
  </tbody>
</table>

One more note: Wikipedia (and elsewhere) use “excludable” instead of “exclusive”, and I dislike that. Something is public goods not only based on whether exclusions are possible but whether they are actually done. Something is inevitably non-exclusive if it is non-excludable. But excludable things that are not actually made exclusive can still be public goods as long as exclusions are not added.

Overall, I think we should embrace this chart and the (improved) technical terms but frame them with the improved, accessible test questions. Then, it all needs to be presented in a clear order that succeeds at getting everyone to have the core intuitions. Once people have their intuitions sorted out, they are ready for understanding everything else we are focused on, crowdmatching, cooperation, etc etc

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This is a really interesting thread. I don’t feel qualified to contribute much on the subject yet, but I wanted to say that having the visual of the table really helped my brain to process the information! I’d be happy to see that at an early stage of browsing the site, but I don’t think I’d want to be overloaded with all the details too early on.

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I was thinking further about our framing of public goods.

I think we can and probably should take the positive angle about public goods and avoid direct negativity about club goods. All we need is to suggest that there are great reasons to care about public goods, and thus the need for a way to support them better.

In the past, I’ve often been critical and defensive about the injustices of club goods. They set up power dynamics that are often abused and we don’t get to see what we’re missing about all the potential evolution and creativity that is blocked, and so on. Going forward, I still think it’s okay to discuss the way the power around club goods can be abused, but obviously the power doesn’t have to be used badly.

I think we will thrive by simply emphasizing that the four types of economic goods exist, that public goods have value that is distinct, every sort of goods faces different economic challenges, and we are specifically focused on public goods. Just celebrate that. We can invite any club goods project to consider switching to public goods terms if they feel it’s the right decision for that case. We can say that we want to make that decision easier by providing a better method for funding public goods.

We’re still implicitly criticizing club goods by emphasizing the benefits of public goods. I just think the focus should be on how great public goods can be rather than on how bad club goods can be.

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I agree about taking a positive angle, and I also think it would be easier to understand if explained in positive terms. Here’s an idea for doing that with the 2x2 matrix:
20211026144615
Public goods 2x2.ods (13.2 KB)

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I love this! Huge improvement. And it really lends to the shortest quip: “Public Goods = Free & Abundant” (or Abundant & Free, not sure what order is better). Or maybe “Abundance + Freedom = Public Goods”

An attempt at tweaking the wording:

  • Abundance: Can it be available to a practically unlimited number of people?
  • Freedom: Does everyone have the rights to access, use, copy, adapt, and share?[1]

I appreciate the points about copying being not always applicable in practice and that in all cases, adapting and sharing really are about adapting and sharing copies. I think it makes sense to clarify that stuff right away in any article or discussion. I’m less sure about whether it’s needed in the chart where we want truly minimal text.


  1. edited from "does everyone have the same freedoms" which was aiming to push against cases where some rights are reserved, e.g. commercial rights; I think we can't have a short sentence that captures all the nuances around copyleft or other details which will just need further explanation ↩︎

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I like “Abundance + Freedom = Public Goods”.

Here’s a version with re-tweaked wording. I find “practically” problematic in that context because I’m not sure whether to interpret it as a synonym for “virtually”/“effectively” etc. or in the sense of practical vs. impractical.

20211027171208
Public goods 2x2.ods (14.3 KB)

However, after looking at the Wikipedia page about public goods, I’m wondering whether we’re stretching the concept a bit too much to match what we want to use it for? The terminology section says:

Non-rivalrous: accessible by all while one’s usage of the product does not affect the availability for subsequent use.

Non-excludability: that is, it is impossible to exclude any individuals from consuming the good.

There’s nothing there about copying, adapting, or sharing - just about access / usage / consumption, and non-excludability is described as about the inability to exclude people, not a voluntary decision not to exclude people.

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Might it be more accurate, and easier for people to understand, to summarize what Snowdrift is about as “Crowdmatching for free software and free culture”?

Or maybe “Crowdmatching for free/libre/open goods”?

I know this requires many people to learn what free/libre/open means, but most people also need to learn what public goods means. I’m wondering if the concept of public goods, as understood by many people who are already familiar with it, doesn’t actually fully explain what we’re aiming to fund, and is easily confused with things like NPR and PBS (which the Wikipedia page on public goods cites as an example of a public good).

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I love this conversation. I think the thoughts and challenges are really leading toward a great, clear, inspiring result.

I started a reply yesterday, and I’m going to flesh out an edited longer post soon. But some key points are:

  • we are in position to lead here, to refine and define the terms (not needing to absolutely defer to Wikipedia for example). Nobody has yet made the issues clear in the way we are working to do right here (more on that soon)
  • we should present a quadrant system, 2-dimension spectrum, not strict yes/no dichotomies; projects have various features and various rights, and each of them can be more or less abundant or free and the project overall can have a place in the 2-dimensional map
  • I think it’s essential we stick to “public goods” and see it as a much more winning rhetoric than FLO, and we can leave open the potential to fund anything that qualifies as public goods enough
    • “public software” is even a term people have proposed to deal with the flaws in “Free” and FLO and so on
    • economically and rhetorically, “public domain” really is the topic here, even though that has a strict legal meaning; we probably should use it in our explanation of public goods in longer articles
  • The status quo is largely to accept that public goods funding is not effective, so something non-public has to be the "product"
    • Real projects have many elements and they are not all public goods necessarily
    • NPR and PBS access rights are public goods, but they make a product out of the club-goods status of publishing-rights and rights to put in ads
    • This basic “what’s the product” framing is super useful. People point out that Facebook users aren’t the customers, they are the product, the customers are the advertisers
    • Nearly all projects seem to focus economically on club-goods or private goods aspects of their work.
      • This can be really well-expressed through discussions of examples
    • Today, public-goods parts of projects function as either (A) the primary focus that gets supported by the non-public-goods or (B) a way to get a share of the attention market in order to support the non-public goods (which become the primary purpose).
  • Our mission is to take on this core challenge of making public goods economically viable directly without reliance on non-public-goods. And addressing that challenge and the widespread cooperation needed to do it is basically the foundational issue for how to build the cooperative economy and society that we need, i.e. this is the meta issue (per Schmactenberger and others).
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@salt asked me to chip in, maybe he thought about something like this?

freedom-abundance

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@mray that’s neat! I I love how it expresses a continuum (instead of binary) and puts the focus on public goods.

I think “free” here still has the dilemma around vague meaning. I kinda think “open” is the best accessible term really. Maybe open + abundant.

Maybe “FLO” is the term, though we have the dilemma that FLO is not itself something naive lay people will understand. Also, we don’t usually apply FLO to Common Goods (FLO fish in the river?).

I have other continuing concerns and questions that are not yet clear enough to even myself to be ready to think about how to present them best. More on that soon.

Freedoms, rights?

I was thinking that freedoms can themselves be considered a thing or a feature of a product, but alternatively “rights” are a way to talk about it. Like, what is the “good”? Instead of it being the entirety of a project, we might talk in terms of features or qualities. I’m thinking in the direction of saying that for a particular project, the publishing-rights are a club good while access-rights are a public good…

Continuing my evolving thoughts

One realization: the traditional analysis as shown at Wikipedia (and which @Salt mentions is from Elinor Ostrom) has a core flaw that is perhaps the issue I’m pushing back on. By use of “excludable”, it is asserting that the economic principles at play are those of exclusivity. That framing fundamentally assumes that anything excludable should or will be made exclusive. Otherwise, why treat anything excludable as a club good? Obviously if there’s no exclusive restrictions on something, then there’s no club and none of the club-goods economics apply. We might note that it’s possible to lock something down, but the economic issues of clubs only come up if and when the restrictions are actually put in place.

We might, perhaps uncharitably, see the original model as presuming that anything excludable might as well be treated as exclusive. It’s like saying, “we only have to worry about the icky, wicked, difficult dilemmas about public goods and commons if we fail to lock things down”, as though the restrictions are the obvious answer. I could imagine (no clue how valid this is) Ostrom basically giving in to the privatization argument and saying “sure, privatization solves things, but I’m here to show you the limits of privatization by pointing out that some cases are impossible to privatize, so we have to grapple with commons and public goods!!”

By contrast, my assertion is that we don’t need to assume privatization-whenever-possible. We can flat out say that there are benefits to retaining FLO public and commons status of things. And as long as that status is retained, then obviously we do face the dilemmas, we are economically dealing with commons and public goods.

If a whole community accepts that some gardening tools are to be left in the community garden and there is no realistic threat of anyone taking them, then these could-be-private-goods are in fact not economically private goods but are common goods. Also, let’s ask: could they be public goods? Clearly only one person can use a tool at any one time. But if it happens that there’s no realistic scenario in which multiple people care to use the same tool at the same time, then it might as well be public goods, there’s no actual rivalry. The core point is that exclusivity and rivalry are economically important factors in understanding how we deal with any situation. It divorces from reality if we try to nail down a universal forever status of each thing or project. We just need the language and framework to say that rivalry and exclusivity are two of the most important aspects of any economic situation.

So, our framing could describes abundance vs rivalry, and FLO vs restricted so that people understand that these are the main issues. I wonder if it could be useful to actually label them that way, as the opposite ends of continuum rather than picking one and asking “yes/no”? So instead of “is it abundant, yes or no?” or even “how abundant is it?” we might consider asking “is it abundant or rivalrous?” and “is it FLO or restricted?”

This is not a proposal as final grid but I’m sharing to prompt further thinking:

grid-thought

html
<table>
  <tbody>
    <tr>
      <th colspan="2" rowspan="2">Types of goods</th>
      <th colspan="2" style="text-align: center; vertical-align: middle;">Rivalry?</th>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <td>Scarce</td>
      <td>Abundant</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th rowspan="2" style="text-align: center; vertical-align: middle;">Exclusivity?</th>
      <td>Restricted</td>
      <td>Private goods</td>
      <td>Club goods</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <td>FLO</td>
      <td>Commons</td>
      <td><strong>Public goods</strong></td>
    </tr>
  </tbody>
</table>

FLO as a choice, rivalry less so?

A key thought: Is rivalrousness more inherent while exclusivity is often a choice?

As a musician, I could choose to focus on rivalrous works or not (concerts and lessons versus recordings and writings), but can I turn one into the other? I know I can choose whether to make things more FLO or not (concert in the park for anyone who comes versus ticketed-show, paywalls or ads on recordings versus FLO publication and legal status).

So, we have four types of goods that face different economic realities. Within that, maybe we can emphasize that FLOness is a choice (and one that will involve less trade-offs the more we figure out how to economically support that choice).

Pulling a bit away from the strict public-goods focus, maybe we could emphasize that FLOness could be a choice for rivalrous goods too. It’s the choice between private goods and common goods.

In this framing, we might emphasize the question of the FLO choice instead of putting the main emphasis on public goods. We can still talk about how the methods for supporting the choice to go FLO are different for commons vs public goods, and that crowdmatching is more aimed at public goods.

What about rivalry as a choice? Can someone take normally rivalrous things and make them less rivalrous? In practice, that could be just a matter of providing enough quantity/capacity that rivalry disappears. Supply-and-demand really. When the supply is high enough, rivalry disappears, even for scarce-in-principle physical goods. Another way to adjust rivalrousness might be in the choice of whether to realize an abstract concept more in hardware vs in software.

What about a club-good that is also made artificially scarce? It seems rare in practice, but software can be released with a limited number of licenses to be sold (could even allow resale of licenses or similar schemes). Economically, that would make software be a private good because it would have both rivalry and exclusivity, though both would be artificially imposed.

It might help to separate the issues of the economic factors (exclusivity and rivalry) from the question of artifice.

Better terms than “public” vs “common”?

I do want to flag that “commons” and “common” are commonly used for things that this framework calls “public goods” and this is widespread enough that it’s probably impossible to completely shift everything. Consider “Creative Commons” (which is only used for non-rivalrous works)!

Can we come up with a better way to talk about the difference between the two FLOish, public, categories, one being rivalrous and the other abundant? If we could find better terms, it would be a boon.


Thanks for reading these long in-progress thoughts. I’m finding some important value in long-form working out of these ideas, and I feel better about this process having space for it and still sharing and getting feedback instead of waiting to share ideas until I have a carefully edited concise proposal nor doing it all in back-and-forth conversation.

2 Appreciations

Sometime, I’ll work through all these thoughts shared here and update our core wiki articles presenting the issues with FLO economics and so on. New points:

Everything is pattern, everything is about copying

So, as emphasized by various philosophical and scientific views: pattern is the basis of reality, there’s no fundamental matter. Like even core elements and molecules are patterns not fundamentally different stuff.

So, scarcity and rivalry are really just a matter of how costly/slow/challenging it is to copy and/or adapt things. In a sense, the universe “copies” the pattern of some elements, like the sun keeps making copies of the helium pattern, and it does it by adapting hydrogen.

The scarcity that our economy naturally values comes from copying being difficult. We can only turn out so many copies of apples via all the time and inputs to grow them on trees.

Making copying easier has only the main problem that it no longer works well with our economic system. We would love if making copies of apples was as trivial as copying text files on a computer. So, clearly this is a continuum across how difficult copying is. And instead of dealing with the economic challenge by forcing copying to be harder, we need a new economic system that supports creative progress without trying to artificially limit or frustrate copying.

There can be good reasons to make copying hard. It might be to enjoy the pure challenge, like enjoying a jigsaw puzzle, The other reason to make copying hard is if we actually want there to be less of something in the world. We want less diseases, make it harder for viruses to get copied. We want crazy conspiracy theories or hateful ideas to not spread everywhere, figure out how to add friction to their spread. In these cases, the value is in the friction of the copying itself, it doesn’t support the idea of adding friction in order to force the fit of an economic model.

All in all, this framing helps to see the whole of reality and recognize the patterns. We don’t need any hard line between digital vs other things or between hardware and software etc. We merely recognize that “how hard is it to copy?” is the operative question. And the follow up is “how hard do we want it to be?” And then we have the dilemma of how to support the cases where it’s hard but needs doing. Add in that it’s not just copying but also adapting / evolving / developing… but it’s all patterns and processes, deep-down none of it is just things.

NFT's etc?

Addendum: I suppose this brings up things to ponder around stuff like NFT’s. The whole point of them is about being effectively uncopyable and non-interchangeable (non-fungible). So, very clearly about maximizing the status on one end of the continuum of copying difficulty. That they are currently being used as pointers to the complete opposite end of of the continuum is notable. But they don’t have to point that way. Using my framing, what is it that we want less of that they could possibly relate to? I suppose personal identifiers… so we want less imposters. But my intuition with that is that we also don’t want personal identity to be something we trade and sell in economic exchanges. These thoughts are more half-baked.

ADDENDUM: I continued the discussion about this in a new topic where I got a bit farther on thinking this through Crypto commodification-ideology and techno-feudalism

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I think this is effectively solved by labeling the axis with “Freedom” (which is not hazy like Free) and to match it the other continuum would be labeled “Abundance”.

I’ve been developing this whole topic for my talk tomorrow. LibrePlanet 2022 online March 19-20

I’ve thought about the language even since I last updated this topic here. I don’t think “freedom” works. It’s not an adjective Linguistically and culturally, it just doesn’t click in terms of people going around in the world and thinking, “oh, yeah, that road has freedom” or similar even pushed toward “I have freedom to use that road”. Most importantly, “freedom” doesn’t clarify the economic distinctions. I have freedom in how I use/adapt/share my chair, but it’s still a private good because the freedom is limited to the owner. We say that software is free-as-in-freedom even if it’s kept private and never shared, as long everyone who has it also has freedoms.

I decided that “shared” and “open” are both acceptable, but “open” is clearly the best term to discuss the economics.

This will all be in my talk, and the progress on this topic that the talk will cover will also be sometime written all out as a wiki page and maybe video or other media.